Nurturing Campus Diversity, with Sam Epps

Dr. Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend, talks with Sam Epps, a 1995 Behrend alumnus, about campus diversity, alumni engagement and the future of labor unions. Originally recorded Aug. 23, 2022.

Transcript

Dr. Ralph Ford: 0:05

Hello and welcome to Behrend Talks. I'm Chancellor Ralph Ford. And today my guest is Sam Epps, a 1995. Penn State Behrend graduate. Sam, welcome to the program.

Sam Epps: 0:17

Thank you, Dr. Ford. Glad to be joining you today.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 0:22

Well, thanks for joining us, doing it remotely. And, you know, I'll just do a little bio so people know who you are and why we're going to haven't going to have this great discussion today. Sam is a 1995 Behrend graduate. Right now he's in the Washington D.C. area. He is the political director of UNITE HERE! Local 25, the union hotel restaurant and casino workers union in the Washington D.C. area. Not only that, Sam is really active not only here on the Behrend campus, but Penn State-wide. He's a former member of the Penn State Alumni Council. And right now he's on the governing board of the Penn State University Alumni Association. You earned your bachelor's degree in Political Science here at Behrend and you are involved in student government association active on our multicultural Council and the Black Caucus. And in 2020, you and your wife, Sabrina created a scholarship for students who come to Behrend from under-represented communities for which we are deeply, deeply grateful. So thank you. And again, welcome to the show.

Sam Epps: 1:29

Thank you, Dr. Ford.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 1:32

I like to always start out, you know, you're part of our Behrend community. And that's the whole point of these interviews, is to talk to interesting people in our community. Your first experience at Penn State was actually through Behrend. If you can think back to when you were in school, and it was an enrichment program. So why don't you just tell us a little bit? How did you end up at Penn State Behrend, and what were your early experiences?

Sam Epps: 1:56

Yes, this has been a 30 year love affair. I actually became connected to Penn State Behrend, as you mentioned, through a summer enrichment program, in high school. I was a junior in high school, and Behrend was looking, I think this is before the fourth side of STEM education. I was in high school at Erie Tech. And I was in electricity, electronics. And I thought I was going to be an engineer and Behrend had this program to bring students in the summer who were considering going into engineering. You know, what type of engineering. And so they said, "you do this summer program, you know, one course, your junior year, and then another course." Your first course, you take, I think I took a math course, during that summer. You have automatic admission to Penn State Behrend. And so I look at that as an opportunity. And I knew that I was going to go to school and stay. And so when the opportunity came, I jumped on it. And it was probably the best decision I made. Joining the Penn State family in the Behrend family 30 years ago, it was the best decision I made.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 3:18

We love that program you talk about. It's really gratifying to hear this. Because we essentially continue it until this day. It's undergone different names and slight changes over the years. And we've always had, you know, you made me think we've always had a really nice relationship with Central Tech. And now of course, it's changed into Erie High School. And there's a whole lot of changes going on there as well. But over the years, so many talented students like yourself came to us from Central Tech. Many of those in engineering technology programs, whether you ended up in engineering or not. And I personally worked with some of those faculty down there who were always really passionate and committed to bringing young people like yourself. So they make a difference in your life, don't they? Your early teachers?

Sam Epps: 3:59

Yeah, absolutely. I had great teachers in high school, mentors, coaches. You know, I'm from Erie. I grew up on the West Bayfront. And so it was area of where families took care of each other. And so to this day, I have a basketball coach that lives you know, blocks from where I grew up. They still live in the same house. And so those types of relationships for me are very important. And it's still important to this day. Even when I come back to visit, I make sure I get down to the West Bayfront and see those individuals who have been a part of my life, my family, and who have been inspirations and mentors to me.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 4:42

So I think you started your Penn State career, after that summer program. I believe at University Park. You ended up back here. But I just like to hear, you know, did you started engineering?

Sam Epps: 4:54

It was a journey. I think you know, you always growing up, think what you want to do and where you want to be in 20 or 30 years. And I thought it was engineering. So I started down that path to engineering, got to University Park. And it just didn't click for me, I think, you know, there is a saying that you should do what you're passionate about and gratifying. And so I just didn't see myself in that type of role. And so I think how I got to political science is through my involvement on the University Park campu,s and student government and organizations like the NAACP, and the Black Caucus down at University Park. And then really, when I got back to Behrend. And transferring back to Behrend, and it was out of not being disciplined, right. And, you know, there's a lot of things that go on at University Park that, you know, takes your focus off the ball. And I just felt it was very important to get back to a place where I could really focus in and, and keep the promise that I made to my mother, that I was going to graduate. And so, you know, I bounced around. You know, I started in engineering and thought I was gonna go into business, but really my activity and involvement on both the University Park campus and also on the Penn State Behrend campus is what led me to political science. It just clicked for me there.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 6:35

So were there any, you know, we've got a tremendous political science department here, a lot of success stories. And, you know, some really inspiring faculty. Are there any in particular, you were close to?

Sam Epps: 6:49

Yeah, I think I call them the big three. They started in infancy of that program in that Dr. John gamble, Dr. Zack Irwin, and then, you know, my favorite is Dr. Robert Speel. You know, me and him still connect with each other. When he brings students down to the D.C. area every year. I really tried to meet with those students, bring them over to our office, talk a little bit about what I'm doing, talk about the union movement. So I consider those three, as the program has now built out and much more in a disciplinarian with with women's studies, communication, you know, in there with the political science program and some other things that are happening in a political science program, but I consider those are like, my top three right there.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 7:43

Well, you know, it is they, they were all hugely influential. And well, two of them have retired, they remain in touch with this. I hear from John Gamble quite often. And as you know, Dr. Speel, is a very active faculty member here, the longtime student favorite, and for good reason. So you know, he's won a lot of university teaching awards. And like you said, each year, he's got this great program where he brings students to Washington D.C. to see political science and democracy in action.

Sam Epps: 8:16

Yeah, and I tried to share from my angle of how our union works to be a part of that democracy. And workers having a voice in democracy, and how the economic and social justice connects with that. So it's always a pleasure to have those students down here. And I hope soon we will get started. The pandemic knocked a lot of that travel out for students, but hopefully we we can see them in D.C. soon.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 8:48

Well, we will, hopefully have them there. I think it's usually in the spring. But let's switch back. You know, I want to come back and talk about your experiences and what you're doing right now. But I just wanted to paint the picture a little bit or get your perspective. What was Behrend like when you were here in, you know, the early 1990s. And you were very active in the Multicultural Council, which still exists. It's a very active group. And the Black Caucus. So what were your experiences back then?

Sam Epps: 9:21

You know, I was on campus in Behrend's growth stage. And I know it's still growing, but in the really sort of what I would say the foundational stages of Behrend and that growth stage. And so it was a campus that really drew students from all over. You know, not only Pennsylvania, but New Jersey, from New York, and also some international students from Puerto Rico, and then our international students. And so there was a sense of what the multicultural council was too. Create a space, a space for those students who could identify with each other being far from home from New York, New Jersey, or wherever distance that they came from. That there was a space, that there was a family atmosphere where they could have support, build friendships. You know, many of my friends that I worked with here, we're still friends, today. It's a 30 year, you know, friendship. And also, it was a space for students from the diverse background, to also not only be seen, to have support from each other, but also to get a voice on campus and also to program together on issues that were early on and fuzzy. I remember one of the groups was Trigon, which is the LGBTQ group at the time. They may have changed it's name now to a new name. But that was the infancy of that group. You know, we had a Commuter Council, right? Because we have a large population of students, who are commuters and actually I was a commuter student, I didn't live on campus when I was there. And, you know, Nesby, in olas, right, the Latino students, and so we took issues, and concerns that we had together, and really tried to work together as one voice to be seen, to be heard, and to have a space to belong. And to know that we all belong at Behrend. And many of those students were were first generation students, right. The first in their families to graduate. I was the first in my family to finish out a four-year institution. So many of us had commonality there. And we really sort of brought it together, and really did a lot of good programming, not only for ourselves, but the campus as a whole where we could have these discussions as well.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 12:10

You know, listening to you describe that, first of all I got here in the early 90s. And you're right, those were really formative years for the campus in so many ways. While we continue to grow, there was, you really set the stage because all of those things you just said, they apply to MCC, and AllUs and all those organizations today. And they remain one of our most active student groups here on campus. Very visible, they've got a nice home, right in the center of our Student Union. So still meeting that mission that you another set out to create so many years ago?

Sam Epps: 12:47

Yeah, I'm glad I came up and I went in. Students weren't there. But I saw the space, very proud of the space all that there was used to the new organizations like the Caribbean student organization, and some other ones. So really, it made my heart proud to see our vision of when that started or in the empathy just grow in students to be able to benefit from that today. And our campus is still working and discussing the issues around diversity, equity, and inclusion out of that space. So it's, I'm very proud of that.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 13:25

As you should be. Now, you served in another large role when you were here, and that was Student Government Association president. You were SGA president here on campus. That's representing all of our students and student organizations. And do you remember what were the key issues back then that you were working on?

Sam Epps: 13:47

Yes, we were working on and I'm sure you had this today. But one of the main issues was, you know, student groups are looking to program and certainly remember, as the SGA president, looking at funding, right. And how do we find student groups in a way that not only was equitable or to have enough funds, right? I mean, you would, we would get a budget request for $300,000 and only had like $150,000 to give. And so one of the main issues that came out of that was and you have it today and I advocated at CCSD, the Catholic Student Governments was a student activities. Behrend was one of the first that implemented student activitie fee to help with programming not only the programming for colleges, but also programming of student groups to be able to create and help students engage and fulfill the missions that their organizations have. So that was one of the issues. I think, you know, across the board. We always dealt with the way faculty diversifying and the staff and those types of things. So I see those are with some of the major issues. But I think what we really did around the student activity fee, is what has again set the foundation for what Behrend in the student groups are doing today.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 15:21

That was far seeing actually in that process still worked really well. And it funded student groups here on campus. And it was later followed by the student facility fee, which helps with facilities. So really forward thinking. Let's talk a little bit about your time after Behrend. So you studied political science. Was your aspiration to run for office or be involved in politics? Did you ever think about running for office?

Sam Epps: 15:48

So my resume does say this, but I have run for office. Run for local county council office in the county. Placed fourth in a race to represent my district that is done. I actually, when I finished my degree at Behrend, I thought I was going to come and work on Capitol Hill. That was the goal, the mindset that I would go and work on Capitol Hill. But actually, after I graduated, I did a few years in the nonprofit sector, with United Way in Erie and Syracuse. And then moved from upstate New York to D.C. But once I moved to D.C., I actually left left all my belongings in a storage box and went out to Chicago, where I worked on my first political campaign. And so that is sort of where the bug started. There. And once I finished on that campaign, I moved back to D.C. and started to engage in politics on on a party level. And then I dabbled in, I did some political fundraising from that political fundraising stop. It led me to working in the Maryland General Assembly as chief of staff to a state delegate out of Baltimore City, who was the chair of the Baltimore City delegation. So I was the Chief of Staff to the delegation, which was 29, House members and delegates Salima Marriott, Chief of Staff.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 17:24

So that was Salima Marriott. Is that who you were Chief of Staff for? So you've been involved in a few political campaigns at least, and I saw, like, Martin O'Malley's gubernatorial campaign, and I'm sure many others. And I always find it fascinating, because there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes of the campaign, and we don't all know. And somehow, you see campaigns either do well, and sometimes they implode, you know, I won't name any names. And I'm not saying yours. Did you find out underneath like, they just weren't well organized? You know, they put on this great public face, but they didn't have the fundraising messaging. And I didn't I've just loved to hear some of your experiences. Do you have any stories or wisdom that you've learned there?

Sam Epps: 18:08

Yes, campaigns are controlled chaos. And I've had the opportunity to work on campaigns and Pennsylvania, Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, in sort of my three surrounding jurisdiction here, Maryland and the District. And I think a campaign is as good as its candidate, you know. You can have some of those flaws with candidates. But if you have a good campaign infrastructure, you can get over the hump there. And some of that is with messaging. But I think I am a field guy. And when we say field, those are the folks, you know, we're not raising money, we are sort of ambassadors for that candidate, we are going door to door, we are doing events across whatever district we are finding supporters for that individual. And so what I think has happened in campaigns since I started and where we are today is they've moved from sort of that feel door to door talking to voters, meeting your neighbor at the grocery store, talking to individuals that doesn't always agree with you on issues, where we can agree to disagree. You may agree with me 50% of the time, but if you don't talk to that person, that person thinks you and them have no similarities to agree on issues that are important to them. So they just say thank you sort of discarded their thoughts or their engagement in this thing we call democracy, right? And so if I advise anybody, and what I always look at a campaign is, I like to work on campaigns who are going to invest in fields, right. Who are going to put up. Who are going to hire organizers on the ground. And I would tell any candidate before you think about putting in the mail, in social media, the digital types of stuff, what does your field program look like? Because you can move in an election, one to two points with a good field operation. And so if you're trying to get to 51% of the vote, and if tied at 49%, a good field operation can get you to 51.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 20:25

Well, in today's environment where we see so many elections right now, we're so close, you know that one to 2% is the difference. And you, but you touched on a point that, I think is really important for people to understand. And that's everything is becoming so politicized. People don't speak to others. I hear this far too often. We all know it. We don't agree with them. And you're arguing that that's the difference in getting out there.

Sam Epps: 20:50

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll take you know, my experience that Behrend and a class with Dr. Speel. We had, I've had individuals in that class and classmates, who was on the other side, they were more conservative than I was, right. And so to this day, we still try to get together down here in D.C. They're down in D.C. as well, too. Because I think in that opportunity of the, the class that we may not have agreed on that issue. There's some issues that we agreed on. And we sort of intellectually thought that out in the class. And so and I think there's some respectability about that. Okay, I get I get your point. And so that person, you know, may drop me a note and say, "Hey, let's go, let's go to the baseball game," right? Or, you know, "are you going to say, watch party down here?" And so today, you may not find that around, because it's so politicized. But I take that back to sort of what I've learned at Behrend, and in those classes where we had to debate our opposition.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 21:55

So Sam, let's talk a little bit about the scholarship that you've created. And the impact that it has, from your perspective. You know, what's the impact of the students and for the broader Behrend community?

Sam Epps: 22:08

Yeah, I touched on this a little bit. For me and for my wife is to connect, get closely connected to individuals in the Erie Community. But I would answer it this way. No matter what side of the track, you were born on, what location in the country you live in, your gender, your economic background, that we wanted this scholarship to represent to individuals who received it, that they belong that Behrend. And that they belong that Penn State. And for the broader community, what it does, is it adds so much value to that of having students from an international student from China here, someone from Puerto Rico, someone who grew up in Queens, New York. You know, someone who grew up in rural Pennsylvania, coming together, and experiencing educational matriculation and intellect. It really not only brings those different backgrounds and traits of all of our stories together, it creates a better world, right? That's what we're trying to do. And as we talk about right now in MIT, so where our democracy is, you know, you it's very good to have a campus that you can have those not disagreements were but backgrounds where we can learn from each other in this democracy, right. And we talked a little bit about this earlier. Is we need to talk to people who are outside of our comfort zone, right. And so it's very important that I had that classmate who was not the same ideology as myself politically, but we were able to debate that in class. But then we were able to go watch the baseball game together, righ? That is the community that we want to build here. And that's what we're hoping this scholarship does. And I hope that that's what it brings to our campus. A campus that is more more diverse. It begins to in a very small way, because I know there's larger issues going on there. That when people leave Behrend that their relationship is not with just one type of people. They have diverse friendship across the Penn State family, and that's what we want to do.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 24:44

Well, thank you so much for that because it does add not just in a small way, but in a large way. And that's what college you know, a university education is all about. Bringing together people for a diverse set of perspectives or maybe not all about, but it's a really important aspect. And one is like you said, can we talk to each other, even though we disagree? And increasingly, people cannot. We need to reverse that. The future of the country depends on it.

Sam Epps: 25:11

Absolutely, it is, even in my word, I have to talk to the other side of the aisle. You still still practically, you know, to get policy or legislation, you have to talk to everyone. And I think we want this scholarship to be a beacon of that. We are, bringing in diverse students from diverse backgrounds to Behrend. And, you know, my wife and I had diverse experiences in our educations. She went to a historically black university in Columbia, South Carolina. But it was very similar to Behrend in terms of five, her campus at right out side of the University of South Carolina. So to understand, you know, our two different educations, but very similar, in a way. And so we certainly want to be able to provide that for future generations of students to have and to meet students from many, many backgrounds.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 26:12

Well, that's, you know, I think it's a really important lesson, and it's great to see that you continue those relations. Let's switch to your your current job, which is political director of UniteHere local 25. So, you know, why don't you tell our listeners, first of all, what is UniteHere 25, and I'd love to hear what you do. And you know, one of the things you advocate for US political director,

Sam Epps: 26:37

Yes, I work on behalf of workers who work in hotels in the D.C. metro Washington area, which is D.C., Maryland and Virginia. And these workers are in classification, as when I say when you think about a hotel, think about the classification, bellman, housekeeper, cooks, food and beverage. You may go to a hotel, that you're at an event and someone serving you, houseman. So those workers make up our union. We also represent workers that are at Pacino's. And so we have a property here in Prince George's County MGM that we represent those workers as well, too. So that's who we are, as a union. And as political director, my goal is sort of what I learned that multicopter bound is to create a space for our workers, who are thinking about their daily lives, to be able to engage in politics in a way that we let elected officials know the law that are their path and how they affect our workers. And so I do both internal education to our members, I do external to the broader public, I engage with elected officials both on a policy level, but also I engage on electoral level. So we are, we're engaged right now in midterm elections here in both the District of Columbia and Maryland. And so that's sort of my round of responsibilities that I have as political director.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 28:30

So we've had the pandemic and the economy has changed, the workforce has changed and a lot of belief that maybe things have turned in favor of workers right now. I mean, are you seeing that? If you've seen improvements, given the competitiveness of what's going on out there improvements, or I'll say even better understanding what those workers do, given all we've been through these last few years,

Sam Epps: 28:54

I think the pandemic has accelerated that. Like, for example, our membership. During the pandemic, we had 98% of our workers out of work. During that time, they couldn't work remotely from their home, they couldn't do any of that. And so, what I think the pandemic has done is it has turned into work of favors. And we're seeing that. We're seeing that we're in this moment where, you know, you're now seeing workers who want to unionize at places where we never thought that they would. You know, Starbucks, Amazon, you know, Chipotle is right. You know, so it's happening. It's happening in our industry as well as hotels. We're not as fully back as everyone else is. But we're certainly seeing that and, and what I say to a lot of people, we are now the popular kids, because with the labor shortages now and workers and we lost workers to the COVID pandemic. On number of workers and you know, I know other unions who represent other parts of the industry, they lost workers as well. Workers are now saying,"No, I need more than inflation, the pandemic, my safety." They are now in a sort of position to bargain with the employer. And employers, you know, I was just talking with someone. Employers are very aware of that now. And many people who are against raising their minimum wages are moving their wages up to attract workers, right, and changing their benefit packets, because, you know, workers they know, they don't have those types of benefits don't have a shortage out there.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 30:46

I was at a company last week, a really progressive manufacturer, and they're starting everyone at$15.50. If you don't have any experience, and pretty generous benefits, packaging, you go from there. So it does seem that $15 is like the new minimum wage. Even here in Erie, I don't think you can do much with you know, less than that. Maybe it's even different there. But it's one of the you know, you had a point about tip workers, I've always found that a curious idea that you can pay below minimum wage. And it seems like it's a United States centric approach. Do you think that that changes, I mean, should that sort of designation exist even

Sam Epps: 31:20

With the pandemic and I was enacting yesterday I was in a meeting on this topic. That states are now either doing referendums, or there's, there's about seven states that has no tip wages, you know. And some of them are out west California, Oregon, those states out west. And there's some now moving on east coast. So remove that and just bring the sub wages out and the tip wages out, and just bring everybody up to a standard hourly rate. And so I think with the pandemic, that you're going to see both industry, and unions, and those who support workers and economics come together, and move to try to remove that. It's happening now. And my meeting yesterday was literally to talk about, is there an appetite to do it in one of my three jurisdictions, as a policy matter?

Dr. Ralph Ford: 32:19

It'll be interesting to see where it goes. I lived overseas, and I didn't have that. And I just know, you know, people still gave tips that are different, though you weren't doing it in the same manner. And the workers, just the waiters and waitresses, and so to speak, just got kind of normal wage, like everyone else did. And I suppose you can argue both points. But it's interesting to hear that that's moving.

Sam Epps: 32:41

Yes, it's moving. And and it's also has created, right is a space where, where we, as a union have an inequity, we have some tip classifications in our in our union contracts. And so it does create a conflict between workers. You know, I'm my classification, I may be the bartender or busser. And we're all on tip wages. And then the waitstaff is also on just regular wages. And so it creates some inequity. And it also, especially in restaurants, where typically the waitstaff people in the back of the house are of color, people of color, and the waitstaff, you know, is white. And so it then also creates a racial dynamic as well, too, in restaurants. And we've seen that too, because we represent a couple high end restaurants as

Dr. Ralph Ford: 33:38

Well, I'm going to ask you a question that I'm well, too. sure you've heard 100 times before. And people I'm sure challenge you. Why do we need unions? And and what's your answer to that question?

Sam Epps: 33:51

My answer that question is that one should be able to collectively bargain their job, but I have sorted in a way that individuals needs rights, respect and dignity on their job, and that employees should be able to come in there to collectively bargain together and say, what's best for all of them, right? Health and safety wise, bargain economically, also to be able to bargain, what I call dignity. And dignity is their pension. If they can get a pension right after they leave this job? How are they able to live in their golden years? So for me, it is unions allow employees and workers to have a voice on the job. And I go back, I thought about this and I thought about it in a way for me and how I got to sort of my answer that I said about MCC. It creates commonality on the job. It creates a shared space. It creates a voice on the job, right. That they can win something that is affecting them on their job, they can collectively go to their supervisor, to the owner and say, hey, if we can continue to do this way, two people got hurt on this belt or two people had a problem here. How can we solve this? And so there's a collective action there. So that's how I looked at it. And that's how I would answer it to anyone.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 35:30

That's a great answer. And I wrote it down. Rights, respect and dignity. I think it's a really great answer. And I, you know, I will tell you this, when you and I were at an event earlier this year, you may not even know and someone walked up, they challenged you on this question, by the way, and I saw you answer it in a very nice, disarming way. But I and very eloquently. So I had asked it again here, because I heard you answer, for you may not even remember it. But we were at the campaign celebration, and someone came up and said, so it's kind of a funny, funny exchange, you know, interesting exchange, but I appreciated how you, you handled it stuck out in my mind. Well, we're at the just about the end of our time here. Is there any, you know, anything you'd like to add? I give you the floor here at the end of the interview,

Sam Epps: 36:16

I certainly would like to add that unions, for me, are needed in a way. My father was in a union, right. And there are many workers who belong to unions who have sent their kids to college, based on good wages and good benefits. And now, what we're seeing in a country that the income inequality has just grown, that gap has grown. And it even has affected our students, and having to borrow large sums of money to matriculate through college. And the way I certainly see it is the way for us to combat that is for individuals to be able to join unions, and to be able to collectively bargain for good wages, good benefits, to live out their American dream of their children's doing much better than they did. And so that's what I certainly believe in. And I and certainly, I think that the role that I'm doing here with you tonight, here is a direct result of my matriculation through Behrend and my involvement there. And so I certainly don't take it lightly that I'm here. I'm very humbled that I can impact workers every single day. And I can see it in a very tangible way. And so I certainly think those learning experiences I had, and those opportunities I had on campus led in a way that has landed me here in this position.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 37:56

Well, so humble, and so nicely said, and, you know, a lot of truth there. And I will say, you know, from my own personal experience, and yours and others, a lot of us came from parents who were union workers. And they had that aspiration to send us to college. And it is very real, and it lives on. And, you know, I just wanted to make one point before we close here, too, and that is to really thank you and your wife, and recognize what you have done. You made a clear commitment to diversity. And you created this wonderful scholarships this Sabrina and Sam Epps Educational Equity Scholarship that's benefiting our students. You continue to be involved with our students. We didn't even get into all of that. And each and every day, you're mentoring our students. And we greatly appreciate that. So I want to thank you for being with us here today, Sam, and for all the support and wonderful things that you do. Not only for Behrend, but for the larger community. You should be very proud of it.

Sam Epps: 39:00

Well, thank you, certainly me and my wife, for us, much has been given to us. And so we certainly wanted to give back. And for me, it is very important for me to create that legacy line because, and as you said, the interaction of Behrend with many of the high schools there. But it's also to create opportunities for people who grew up on the Lower West Bayfront to be able to have an opportunity to come to Behrend, to be able to experience the campus, and is really to close that gap of Behrend to the Erie Community in a way. That is you know, you have an opportunity becuase of grades to go to Behrend, but because of the economic situation you could. That this Equity Scholarship would help you get there. That's what it's about for Sabrina and I, who also went and had scholarships at her historically black college and university. So yeah.

Dr. Ralph Ford: 40:02

Well, thank you so much to our audience. You have been listening To Behrend Talks. I'm Chancellor Ralph Ford and our guest today has been Penn State Behrend graduate Mr. Sam Epps, graduate of our political science program and the political director of UniteHere local 25 in the Washington D.C. area. Thank you so much.